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Post by Juice1300 on Jun 12, 2013 10:59:13 GMT -8
Oh man, sorry about the hold up, guys. I totally double checked everything and I *think* it should be fixed now. Silly me. But that's why you keep me around, ain't it? ^_~
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Post by Bob on Jun 12, 2013 11:09:03 GMT -8
Okay, the SM7 vs S game has been simmed, so we're ready for a Stamina Report, Fleck! I'll sim the next game Saturday, so get those line-ups to me by then.
And I must apologize for a HUGE error that's been plaguing Straw! all season long. I didn't notice it until Juice put Gau in goal. His CA was coming up as 1, so I did what I have yet to do ever and that's check the playerdata. I thought there was no way Gau would have a CA of 1...and I was right. We had an error with Gau's name that I never even considered possible. In the teamdata, but not the playerdata, there was... A SPACE! I never noticed it until now because...it's a space. Friggin seriously, a space. So the program was taking in "Gau " and then it was like...hmm... no "Gau " here, only a "Gau" in this file. Must be different! So he was getting all 1's as his stats.
SORRY JUICE I TOTALLY SCREWED YOU! At least I think Gau is a reserve player, but still. Gotta run, but more later!
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Post by Juice1300 on Jun 12, 2013 11:16:33 GMT -8
Holy smokes, it makes so much sense! Well, at least you noticed it now We'll see how things go for the rest of the tourney =D
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Post by wyvernxk7 on Jun 12, 2013 16:35:12 GMT -8
Does that mean a re-sim for Gau games?
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Post by wyvernxk7 on Jun 12, 2013 16:41:09 GMT -8
Possible same issue with WCC's Cait-Sith, because when the Nightshades blanked them 10-0, he was in the goal and his CA was always 1...
I'll be interested in seeing the resimmed match results. I would suggest only resimming the ones where teams affected by this error lost, because if they were able to win despite the glitch effectively neutralizing their players, I'd say they earned it.
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Post by Bob on Jun 12, 2013 18:39:06 GMT -8
Unfortunately, I don't think we should re-sim matches, we'll just make sure all corrections are made in future matches. So yes, I'll definitely look into ol' Caity-poo. I'll rename him "Cait Sith" in both files to remove all confusion. I think I'll do the same with Red xiii, promoting him to "Red XIII" in all instances, just to be sure.
I'd definitely be willing to re-sim for curiosity's sake if people are curious, but going into Round 8, I don't want to redefine our whole tournament. We might take the results into account for any tie-breakers though, like Fleck was discussing (and I'm now realizing I never weighed in on). So I think we'll break ties with goal differential and include some re-simmed matches.
I think what I'll do for Juice though is I'll re-sim any matches as long as you are one of the two teams involved. So Juice, I'm totally willing to re-sim any/all of your matches so we can see how you should've done, but only at your request. Otherwise, the only way I'll re-sim matches at (for instance) Wyvern's request would be if Nightshades or Mad Experiments were the opposing team. Not doing it to be a dick, but more to respect that Juice may not even want all the matches re-simmed, y'know? But again, I don't think these should count in the standings, though I could be swayed by good enough arguments, but I'm ready to chalk a few things up to "growing pains" with the program and just make sure we don't make these same errors in League #2.
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Post by countlieberkuhn on Jun 12, 2013 18:51:30 GMT -8
I think the main thing that matters where Juice is concerned in practical terms, is whether or not STRAW! will be excluded from the upcoming tournament or not. I think for fun's sake, at least one of Juice's teams should be in there (and at least one of each players' teams for that matter), especially considering STRAW should have performed much better. And WCC for that matter.
tl;dr, Juice is a super laid back guy, but it'd a shame for him to miss out on the next tourney because of an input error.
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Post by Bob on Jun 12, 2013 19:13:18 GMT -8
Well, I can look up which characters might've had errors involved (Gau, probably Cait Sith, and maaaaybe Red XIII), then we'll see how many matches those dudes even played in. Gau IS a reserve, technically, so he couldn't have been in very many.
But I do agree that it'd be nice if Juice was involved in the tourney, especially if he deserves to be there.
EDIT: Oddly enough, the flawed rounds for Straw! would be rounds 3, 4, and 5. 4, as it turns out, is the one they won! Though, it was against WCC, who ALSO might've had an error. I WOULD be curious if they would've beaten GW or not, being that it was such a close game.
EDIT2: Red Xiii should've been unaffected (though I'll still possibly bump him up to XIII status, but Cait Sith is definitely a trouble-maker, too. What this tells me is that I need something in my program that gives a "Player Not Found" instead of assuming that we want a 1-1-1-1-1-1 player. You'll see that in Version 4. So that's Rounds 3-7. Yikes!
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Post by Bob on Jun 12, 2013 20:23:28 GMT -8
Okay, so I've re-simmed all potentially-flawed matches, but I won't look at them, nor release them publicly unless I get everybody's consensus on the re-sims. We should all make a decision about what to do before we see the results. There is a chance (mostly for Straw) that the results actually bring them down just by random luck.
I think I only have a single game invested in this (GB vs WCC, I think), and I'm fine with a re-sim. But I've gotta hear from all parties. And now, having said that, I'm gonna go look at the results because I CAN! Mwa ha ha! (I'll definitely post all resims, this is just for do you give permission to use the resim results or not). Better yet, for true honesty, you must all PM me your answers!
LET ME MAKE THIS REALLY CLEAR SO THAT EVERYBODY SEES, HENCE THE CAPS!
IF YOU ARE OKAY WITH ME USING THE RESULTS FROM THE RE-SIMULATIONS OF STRAW! ROUNDS 3-5 AND WORLD CLASS CREATURES ROUNDS 3-7, THEN SEND ME A PM SAYING IT'S OKAY. IF I DO NOT HEAR FROM YOU, THEN I WILL COUNT YOUR LACK OF A PRIVATE MESSAGE AS A "NO."
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Post by wyvernxk7 on Jun 12, 2013 20:56:15 GMT -8
My stance:
I don't think that if Straw loses a corrected game that they had previously won by 'random chance', that that should be taken from them. If they are competent enough that even down a player the entire game they were able to win, they should be able to retain that. To that end, my suggestion is ultimately to just resim games they lost that were affected by the glitch. It's one thing if programming issues or changes don't allow the game to work precisely as they should, it's another thing entirely if some teams are playing with five when others have six, especially when in some circumstances, the missing player was arguably the most important one.
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Post by wyvernxk7 on Jun 12, 2013 21:04:13 GMT -8
In addition, there will not be a true redefinition of things, because it's a league right now and not a tournament. If brackets were involved, I'd say sure, tough luck this time, but when it's the difference between a team potentially being a contender and being in the gutter, I think it's your responsibility to correct the situation. If they legitimately lose anyway, so be it, but if not, they deserve their wins. Simulate seven iterations of the same game and whoever wins more often gets the W for all I care, but saying "Whoops, sorry you got f'd" doesn't cut it.
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Post by Fleck on Jun 12, 2013 21:37:21 GMT -8
The rules of Blitz Club:
First Rule: Bob is a real person, with a full-time job, a wife, and a baby on the way. It is not his "responsibility" to do anything for us. Blitz is not his job.
Second Rule: We are not paying customers and really have no say in what should and should not be done. Bob is ultimately the man with the finger on the button.
Third Rule: Bob has basically rebuilt the Blitz engine from scratch, and all participants should be aware that mistakes are inevitable, really. Given how many growing pains we had to battle through just to get here, I thought we'd all come in expecting issues like this to happen, and then to just correct them and move on, instead of trying to have a 100% perfect Alpha version of a complicated program.
Fourth Rule: Don't talk about blitz club.
Anyway, my thoughts about the issues and the proposed fixes. I'm fine with a resim of all affected matches. Personally, I don't think it's that big of a deal because A: it's just a game and B: this really is a "test" season, so we should expect bugs like this. I'm really only agreeing with this because Juice is in danger of not having anyone go to the playoffs. It'd suck if GW overtook STRAW! because of a glitch, so I'm agreeing with the resim. If Juice had at least one team guaranteed to make it to the postseason, I'd encourage Bob to just fix the error and move on, keeping the current results. But since he doesn't, I'll help a brutha out.
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Post by Bob on Jun 12, 2013 21:49:45 GMT -8
First off, careful with the accusations. It WAS Juice who sent me the teamdata and playerdata, I just should've had something in the program that double-checked it. So he kinda took himself down, I just wish we'd caught it earlier/in-time.
I definitely differ on my stance though. To me, I'd say if we're saying "Oops, Gau was the wrong build," then we're going to redo all games that involved Gau. Technically, ALL games that involved Gau (and Cait Sith) were affected by the glitch, be it positive or negative, so we should re-sim them all. It's understandable to not want to screw Straw! (and WCC for that matter), but (to me) it's equally wrong to give them a bonus, and that's what we'd be giving if we only simmed their losses. So I'd say we sim all or none, no picking and choosing. Part of what this simulation is about is strategy, but there is a large luck component, as with any sport, so some of it just comes down to "did the team play well?"
I will say though, I re-simmed all Straw! and WCC matches and have them ready to go on my computer, so time is not an issue. I'll say no more though because I know exactly how much the games are affected and don't want to give any future voters an insight as to the results.
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Post by wyvernxk7 on Jun 12, 2013 22:02:12 GMT -8
Yeah, I understand, and I know Bob's got much better things to do. I don't mean to be all fired up about it, it's just that, having been on the receiving end of a number of sorta raw deals with this and previous programs, it's just frustrating to watch someone's effort (in this case, Juice's) get essentially discarded because of a space in the input, that's all. I know it takes a little bit to redo it, but my stance would remain the same on any individual's behalf in any similar situation.
I still don't consider not re-simulating their affected win(s) a bonus, because, as mentioned before, winning with 5 against 6 is a strategic accomplishment whereas the outcome of a 6 on 6 game is predominantly luck, so to me that notion is like saying, "Okay, you just fought one hell of a game, and no one expected you to win, but you did it: you got the better score and the clock's run out, but you don't win unless this coin here lands heads-up." But if re-simming those as well is the only way to get them all re-simulated 'fairly', so be it.
Edit: And yes, if the season was completely over already, I'd just sigh and say "Oh well, maybe next time it won't have an issue that totally bones a team or two," but I'm arguing so fervently because, on top of everything else, the season isn't finished yet and, like Fleck and Count said, this could potentially allow everyone to make it to the playoffs.
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Post by Juice1300 on Jun 12, 2013 22:29:25 GMT -8
Oh man, so much reading. I got most of it, but got bored near the bottom ^^;
Anyway, like Count said, I totally am a pretty laid-back guy. Whatever happens, happens. I know this is all for fun, and making it in to the tournament or not is not too much of a concern.
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