I can barely remember my stance from that many months ago, but I think my general feeling isn't so much that they're terrible songs, but more that Squenix needs to try new things. They keep reviving Gilgamesh and giving updated songs, but what makes BotBB great (to me) is that it has such a simple hook. Most midis needed to be simple. Penny Arcade Extra Credits does a great bit about this (see my Game Designers thread in "General" for a link). The updated versions are technically better, but I liked the simple hooks from before and don't feel they translate well to a full-blown orchestra. but seriously, Dale, check out that link. In fact, here it is again: www.penny-arcade.com/patv/show/extra-credits . It's Season 1, Episode 9. You'd like this.
Regarding music in FF13-2, the chocobo theme also made me laugh and rage. It's so not my cup of tea. BUT, that being said, I finally hopped on a FUGGIN CRAZY red chocobo and listened to their death-metal version of the chocobo theme. It sucked, as most death metal does, but it was kind of hilarious to give the evil chocobo such a "I WILL EAT YOUR FACE" theme. So kudos to them for theming, even though it sucked.
Keep us updated about Ni No Kuni, Count. It doesn't LOOK like my kind of game, but Eternal Sonata surprised me, so I'd be interested to hear about this one.
Well, for those who don't know, Ni No Kuni's story and art was created by none other than Studio Ghibli, with Level 5 (Dark Cloud, Professor Layton) handling the gameplay aspects. By my book, anything with direct involvement from Studio Ghibli is worth checking out!
Sephiroth really tried to summon Jecht, but all he got was Meteor.
I can barely remember my stance from that many months ago, but I think my general feeling isn't so much that they're terrible songs, but more that Squenix needs to try new things. They keep reviving Gilgamesh and giving updated songs, but what makes BotBB great (to me) is that it has such a simple hook. Most midis needed to be simple. Penny Arcade Extra Credits does a great bit about this (see my Game Designers thread in "General" for a link). The updated versions are technically better, but I liked the simple hooks from before and don't feel they translate well to a full-blown orchestra. but seriously, Dale, check out that link. In fact, here it is again: www.penny-arcade.com/patv/show/extra-credits . It's Season 1, Episode 9. You'd like this.
I will not check it out, thank you. I have neither the need nor the time for it, frankly.
But seriously, Bob, how about not keeping yourself so stuck in the past and bring yourself to the PRESENT? Why not just accept the music for what it is?
I will not check it out, thank you. I have neither the need nor the time for it, frankly.
But seriously, Bob, how about not keeping yourself so stuck in the past and bring yourself to the PRESENT? Why not just accept the music for what it is?
Don't have the need for it? You're writing music for a hopeful video game, but don't have the need to listen to a highly-informed perspective about music integration in video games? It's like, seven minutes long, dude.
And seriously, it's my opinion, so don't worry about it. My point wasn't that the music was bad (though FF13-2 does have some laughably terrible music in it), but more that this kind of music doesn't have the same kinds of hooks.
To sum up what they mention in the Penny Arcade episode, they say that old games relied on midis that were unable to play too many notes at once or complex chords, so successful themes were generally based around simple hooks (Mario Bros, Zelda, Final Fantasy theme, etc). Now that sound is better, we're making better music, but without the memorable hooks. And to that point, I agree. The music quality is easily better. It's just not my kind of music.
I was trying to watch a scene in FF13-2 where Serah's talking about serious stuff with Man Hope, but then the music in the background has this terrible "Laaaaa la la la la" crap going on and ALL I could concentrate on was this terrible music, which I assumed was what Serah was hearing in the wind between her ears while Man Hope was talking. Which, honestly, would be an awesome integration of music into a video game if it were true. A main character that will gradually tune out the people talking to him and start hearing the background music more clearly. The World Ends With You was close to this concept, but not quite there.
Anyway, my point is that I believe (should I emphasize more that this is a personal opinion not needing to be shared by the masses?) that older songs based around simple hooks should be left in the past. I feel that some video games are locking in their true potential by revamping an old song of limited chords. Why try to take something like BotBB and go all Sebastian on it (Little Mermaid reference..."Percussion! Strings! Wind! Wooords.") when it's a limited song to begin with?
The theme of the theme song and the character of Gilgamesh are, in my opinion (stressing this again), ruined by the updated themes of FF12 and especially FF13-2. Gilgamesh is not, character-wise, a samurai. He has ninja and samurai weapons, but also knight weapons and I guess thief weapons since he pulls out some Zidane stuff. He's a weapon collector/hoarder. In FF5, where he's introduced, he's kind of a goofball. He's the type of fight where he talks to you and goofs around with you. He doesn't even END his final fight with Butz and crew because he just wants to be buds with you. To update this to Gilgamesh the Samurai is a total flip of his character. This would otherwise be fine if Gilgamesh were a character in the game, but he's DLC, which means people want to fight him because they fought him in FF5 or FF12 (or FF6 for GBA) or because they liked him in FF8. As a reference, you want to keep the original character, not try to reinvent a personality in the one-minute cutscene beforehand.
Furthermore, why update his theme song to be more Feudal Japan when you've updated the character to use guns? Wouldn't you think you'd pull the theme AWAY from Samurai-san and closer to Mr. Roboto? If we're making him Gungamesh, then why not go for electric guitar like The Black Mages do? The Black Mages' version fits the mood for the original theme better, anyway. BotBB is meant to emphasize a fun, epic battle, which the original theme does and The Black Mages' version retains, while the battle theme of FF13-2 alters this theme.
To be fair, FF12's theme isn't bad. I didn't mind BotBB in that game and when I said earlier (y'know...sometime last year) that it made me laugh, I didn't mean that in a bad way. I laughed in a good way because I heard the theme and laughed at the placement. Honestly, the BotBB theme from that game was better than the normal boss music in that game. I didn't like FF12's music very much, so even this song that I don't really love is near the top of my FF12 favorites. But that version at least fit with the style of FF12 and integrated the theme song. I think FF13-2 just took it too far and lost all integrity for the song and the character of Gilgamesh.
Post by countlieberkuhn on Feb 18, 2013 5:37:07 GMT -8
Just watched that video, and it does backup what I had previously thought about game music and how it should work. Unlike yourself Bob, I do enjoy me some orchestral music, but only when it's got a really strong central melody or hook. Eine Kleine Nachtmusik is a good old-school example of that. EVERYONE knows that tune, even if they don't know what it's called.
Going back to battle on the big bridge, I think that tune could work in any style, any format, with any instruments, so long as that main melody was loud and at the front of it all. The novel instruments and accents on the familiar chords should all be more in the background, so that you can identify that it is a twist on the old theme, but still entirely recognisable.
The chocobo theme tends to be the best example of this in the FF games (excluding 13). The basic melody is always there, despite the theme having been done in almost every style imaginable, with FF7 alone having a waltz, bluegrass, and a weird 5/4 swing sorta version of it.
I recently saw a belated review of FF13 where the reviewer commented that one of the things she felt really alienated the fans of the series was the complete and utter removal of the Final Fantasy theme, the victory fanfare, and the classic arpeggiated intro/main menu music. Even the chocobo theme's main melody was barely recognisable. As such, it didn't really feel like Final Fantasy, because we've all been conditioned to expect these things after 2 decades of hearing them in the games, and they're a huge part of what makes Final Fantasy what it is.
Sephiroth really tried to summon Jecht, but all he got was Meteor.
Regarding orchestral music, the point I'm really making about all of this is to watch the video that Extra Credits does. One of their great examples is John Williams. His music is recognizable, catchy, and doesn't rely on the simple hooks of old video games. So basically, yeah, like you're saying, classical music from hundreds of years ago understood this, too. Mozart, Beethoven, all those guys knew how to make something catchy and memorable. BUM BUM BUM BUMMMMM! You friggin remember that. A HUGE portion of the latest video games' music has lost the ability to make a memorable hook. Even Aeris's theme had memorable hooks in it. They created atmosphere. Games now I feel are almost meant to be played on mute with your own music blaring in the background or something.
FF13-2 is a great example for how terrible in-game music can be. I'm playing it now, in fact, and the music is boring me to death. That and the long, pointless dungeons. But all of the music sounds like the Kingdom Hearts theme (wouldn't be surprised if it's that same singer). It doesn't create any atmosphere though. It feels like somebody is putting as much effort into these tracks as a porno background music guy. To be fair, it's probably what my game will be like when I get around to making games since I don't have a musical background, but these are professional and my games are going to be unprofessionally created.
But yeah, wasn't slamming orchestral music except to say that I'm not a fan. The point you're making is entirely what I was driving at. Homage and copy are two separate things. I like the analogy of the chocobo theme. We know what the chocobo theme IS, but we get varied versions of it. I think FF13-2's Gilgamesh fight TRIED for homage, but it just failed. I think FF12 did a decent homage though, I just still prefer FF5's version to FF12's...or if you want an updated version, I'll take the Black Mages' version.
Don't have the need for it? You're writing music for a hopeful video game, but don't have the need to listen to a highly-informed perspective about music integration in video games? It's like, seven minutes long, dude.
Finished FF13-2 last night. Not to 100% completion, but I did a few side-questy things. I'm probably going to play a tad bit more to officially get the feel for it, then I'll write a full-fledged review for the site. But until then...a brief review.
What's strange to me is that I'm at least TEMPTED to say that FF13-2 is better than FF13. I won't say that, but I'm at least tempted to say it. It's mostly for the combat system and the new Crystarium. At first, I was totally loving the level-up system. It isn't restrictive like the Crystarium in FF13, but it felt overly simple. Whether you level your Level 50 commando or your Level 1 Saboteur, it costs the same amount. It's annoying, but it really makes you balance yourself. Do you want a few levels in Saboteur to learn Deprotect, or do you want that Commando ability that you forgot what it does, but it requires Level 60, so it MUST be good...right?
So I was into the ability system. At least, for a while. After about twenty hours, it gets horribly stale. Noel and Serah have no friggin abilities! It wasn't until awhile after Serah mastered Ravager that I realized she had no Blizzaga or Aeroga. She has Firaga and Thundaga, but not the other two. I THINK Noel has the other two, but...what gives? I'm okay with characters being opposite, so I'm kinda okay with it, but then there are some abilities that they just don't have at all. Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY learns Haste. That's a friggin crime. Plus, you'd expect Noel the heavy-hitter to have Bravery and maybe Serah have Faith, but nope. Nobody has it. No Curaga. There are a lot of abilities that are built into the system, but your controllable characters don't ever unlock them. I'm really at a loss here.
Maybe some monsters get them, and holy crap are the monsters unbalanced. At one point, Noel had maybe 300 Attack. He was dealing about 1200 damage. At the same time, I had a Dragoon monster on my team that had an attack of about 500. He was dealing almost twice what Noel was doing, plus he had an extra 2000 life, plus he fought from range, which meant fast attacks and generally avoiding harm. He was a badass/pimp. I even gave him hats to show off how pimp he was (it...was a graduation cap, but hey, someday our pimps will have college degrees because the job market requires it). And then I found a Golden Chocobo and things got real. Damn monsters are unbalanced.
Not only are monsters unbalanced, but they're restrictive. Maybe that's why they're unbalanced? *shrug* You can only have three monsters in a Paradigm Pack and each monster only had one skill set (COM, RAV, etc). This means that it's really up to Noel and Serah to carry most of the weight, but it really kinda stinks. You still only have 6 (I think? Maybe 7?) slots for Paradigms. It basically means that you need to design Paradigms that are only based around Serah and Noel, then tack on some monsters. Probably at least a medic. But I dunno. Somehow, limiting choices actually makes me need more of them. But maybe I'm insane in more than my membrane.
The accessory scheme sucks ass. Nuff said? No! It limits how much you can wear. You can only wear 100 points worth of accessories, but all the good ones are >50. So, of the 4 possible accessory slots can you use? Yeeeah, one. Maybe you can squeeze in some crappy accessory, too, but who cares? So it sucks. Nuff said? *looks around to check for understanding* Nuff said.
Now for the reason that FF13-2 is in no way superior to FF13: the story. The story SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU *takes a breath* UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS! No really, it does. Downright terrible. Felt like a bad fan fic, including a Mary Sue Hero: Noel, and a villain that blows. Noel is boring and pointless. Caius, the villain (don't worry, I spoiled nothing...you know he's the villain from the opening cutscene...no thrills and spills in this adventure), makes no sense. He has at least SOME motivation, but to stay spoiler-free, let's say his motivation is like, a vending machine ate his dollar, so he kills everybody. That's...basically his motivation. Also: he fights with a giant feather. Seriously, I HAAAAAATE his weapon. It makes me realize that JRPGs aren't even taking themselves seriously anymore. Is it supposed to be awesome? It's...dumb. It's a giant feather and it has an eye. It's bigger than his whole body. It's...worth dedicating an entire paragraph of my review to saying how stupid it is.
Back to the story. It sucks. Serah is given the ability to go through time because she has a nice rack. I'm making up that reason because there IS no real reason, so at least this way we get a mental image of boobs. She just can. Because Lightning is lost in Valhalla for no real reason and she can do that...for no real reason. I can't explain the story, which is how I know this is spoiler-free. There's no cause and effect. They just make crap up as they go. "If you change the future, you change the past!" ..........No! You don't! If you do, then say WHY. But...you don't! "People die if they blah blah blah blah spoiler blah!" "Wh-wh-wh....WHY!!?!??!?!? ARG!!!"
To sum up this review, I leave you with the following, because it's all I think about when they talk about Valhalla. www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_3MgUpBIhs
I briefly started to get my hopes up when they went into the future and fought that robot/computer thing that continually revived itself by using time travel. It seemed like it was turning into a cool sub-villain that could harass them across different timelines. I was looking forward to that. And then the whole subplot ends with Serah yelling at Hope. "Don't do it, Hope!" "Huh? Okay."
Yeah, I kinda enjoyed that part. There are a couple of parts that get kind of interesting, but they lead nowhere. Such is a non-linear game about essentially nothing. There were a few parts where I thought they had something going, but then it turns into nothing.
Also: Man Hope. He's everywhere. Very strange. I think he cryogenically freezes himself every couple days. "Anything happen yet? No? FREEZE ME, HURRY!" But yeah, that was an interesting fight. At several points during the game, I was asking myself, "how did Chrono Trigger, a game from the 90s, handle time travel better than this game?" Hell, how did Back to the Future handle it better? I think every time travel game handled time travel better than this game. They keep saying your actions affect things, but they never friggin do!
So, y'all can feel free to call me slow, but something just dawned on me:
XIII Versus, if it ever comes out, will absolutely suck. Here's why:
SE released teaser information in the form of gorgeous animation clips almost 8 years ago for this game. It hasn't been released, and it has always been stated that it would be a completely independent story set in the same world as XIII. This leads me to one conclusion and one conclusion only: The teasers were essentially akin to the technical demo of VII with PS3 graphics: something nice to show how capable they were, all style, no actual intention to make the game (VII)/plan for what it was going to be (XIII V). In other words, they just decided to present the most badass-looking characters/scenes they could muster and call it a game. Under this premise, the odds of it being a worthwhile experience are virtually nil.
That being said, they apparently just rocked the new Tomb Raider, so maybe there's hope for the future of the company in general... maybe.
“You never can tell with these things. Sometimes they want to take you out to lunch… and sometimes that means they’re going to kill you in a steakhouse.”