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Post by monsoonexe on Mar 2, 2014 13:03:55 GMT -8
I like how the last three minutes of the game is Cloud omnibashing virtually everyone on the field.
Good game in all.
So everyone gets 5 stat points to allocate, correct? Are the types and risks able to be changed for all the characters?
With the typing, you can only gauge whether or not it's working correctly with the shooters and catchers because the only time values are shown is during goal attempts.
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Post by Bob on Mar 2, 2014 14:47:09 GMT -8
Yes, five levels to everybody, and you're allowed to completely start from scratch on X characters (for you, X = 1). Types and Risks are able to be changed at this point, yes.
Yeah, you can only see Shot and Catch, but that's because they're the most important things in the game. In an initial test, everything was working properly and we were going to see absolutely nothing, but I decided to keep the SHT vs CA in place. So it's all been tested. Granted, I find errors constantly, so I won't say it's perfect, but...it works.
If you guys would like the numbers to be output, I can do that, but it effectively doubles the size of the document, which is why I didn't want them output. I could maybe output passes, since they work similar to shots on goal...
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Post by wyvernxk7 on Mar 2, 2014 16:57:32 GMT -8
Maybe not for all time, but for troubleshooting and reviewing, having all of the outputs would probably allow us to get a more complete understanding of what is and isn't working.
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Post by Bob on Mar 2, 2014 18:23:20 GMT -8
That's what that program I provided earlier was meant to do. That program calls the different stats from the main function and basically shows you what the functions do when given different Risks and Types. It doesn't show how they interact with players, but it's how we'll diagnose if there's a problem with the types, particularly Catcher, which you two are saying is causing some issues. So use the program, set your risk and type, then hit "c" a lot and it'll output random CA (again, the default for all stats is 100 for the test program, just for simplicity's sake).
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Post by monsoonexe on Mar 4, 2014 10:34:58 GMT -8
I like the way it is now, how only CA and SHT are shown. If you can see all the stat values you can pretty much write down what every players' stats are and that kind of ruins it. SHT and CA are cool because those are the ones that really matter and offer the most anticipation of the results.
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Post by monsoonexe on Mar 4, 2014 15:53:09 GMT -8
Ritz of the Marlboros has decided to part ways in search of other ventures so the recruiting scouts were sent out to the far corners of Spira, Cocoon, and Ivalice for potential Blitzers. The best talent scout, Rin, comes back with Reks, a heavy hitter from Rabanastre to take her place.
My team's all in place. The Marlboro Mayhem is ready to Blitz!
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Post by Bob on Mar 4, 2014 16:55:30 GMT -8
I like the way it is now, how only CA and SHT are shown. If you can see all the stat values you can pretty much write down what every players' stats are and that kind of ruins it. SHT and CA are cool because those are the ones that really matter and offer the most anticipation of the results. That's basically my thoughts on the matter, too. And as long as that test Risk/Type program is outputting correctly, then everything should be working properly numbers-wise. Still gotta figure out that weird teleport thing like Amarant pulled off, but otherwise, I think we're good to go. I'm thinking the Shinra/No.288 thing might just be a fluke, even though it's really, really unlikely. Continue to watch that, guys, in case there's something I'm missing. Oh, also, anybody thinking we should up the base stats? I'm actually considering something fairly extreme like a +9 to all base stats (so default stats of 10). It'll dampen the shooting ability slightly, but not enough to be terribly significant (since SHT gets the boost, too). Or maybe we should start small with a boost of +4 (total of 5)? *shrug* Thoughts? Just pondering things at the moment.
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Post by Fleck on Mar 4, 2014 23:38:24 GMT -8
Before this conversation goes much further, I wanna ask a question. I mean, all of our stats are getting bigger and bigger, but the pool is always the same size, right? So, correct me if I'm wrong, but won't we eventually reach a point where every game is just a nonstop series of off-the-faceoff shots from center? I know there's drag and it's an exponential thing, so that bigger numbers decrease faster, but I swear we're already seeing more shots from midfield than we used to. Or it might be my imagination.
Otherwise, I don't really have a specific opinion on that matter.
Oh, and I do still want to try the Group-style Tournament next time around. While I like the double-elimination format (and Loveless likes it too), I don't really like the way it ends. I mean, I played Mayhem three times in three games there. Kinda repetitive.
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Post by wyvernxk7 on Mar 5, 2014 5:35:12 GMT -8
Yeah, Rich and I were talking about the center-shots too, and they take a lot of the fun, gritty interplay out of the game. Game starts? Goal. Other team gets the ball? Goal. There's basically no further need to up our players' SHT stats because they can already out-stat the top goalie CA (unless the positive random begins working, but I'm not holding my breath that it was just a fluke) from 7 spaces away, which is practically mid-pool.
What I am able to think of is: if the system is adjusted to give defense a little more clout or the pool is made bigger (I think I'd prefer the former, although system changes tend to net further glitches), the problem should be at least somewhat alleviated... But I know very little about how this all works.
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Post by monsoonexe on Mar 5, 2014 6:50:43 GMT -8
The goalie CA isn't a fluke. I looked at all my games where Shinra (with a CA Type) played and logged what his results were and he never got above his base stat. Whereas when other players took the goal position, who didn't have the CA type, their CA rolls were a lot more varied below and above the base stat.
The shot stat is getting to the point where defenders aren't really needed anymore. I've had a couple games where their participation was very low. It also doesn't help that you can build shot almost twice to three times as much faster than you can build CA.
I don't think every stat needs a boost, maybe just the catch stat. Or maybe shot needs to degrade a lot faster.
Like Fleck was saying, It's now almost to the point where shooters A) Don't need to be that close to the goal, and B) Don't need anymore shot stat. The Goalie's CA stat can only go up by 5 max whereas the SHT stat can go up by 15 max.
Rarely is shot affected by block. The payer will more often opt to pass if there's still someone on defense as opposed to shoot through a defender.
Everyone has the same number of stat points, so while the players are getting buffer and bigger, the field is staying the same size. Maybe make the playing field a little larger?
This might be brutal, but what if all stats were cut by half?
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Post by Bob on Mar 5, 2014 7:15:57 GMT -8
Well, making the pool bigger will actually require a lot of coding (positions are hand coded to specific locations, so it'd mean the expanded pool is totally unused), plus it wouldn't change much. The blitzball style accommodates for large shots since they drop by 20% each time, but I've been using 10% this whole time, giving everybody an automatic Golden Arm skill.
The problem I see happening is a League #2 problem. The way my program works, if one of the defenders gets you, you pretty much miss the shot. Defenders have high attack and high block, so your chance of making the shot is low if defended, so our games have required a lot of midfield shots. So if we lower the SHT drastically, we're going to go back to a lot of 0-0 ties. And keep in mind that goalies aren't useless. A lot of midfield shots are ending right about at the CA values of the goalies.
So basically, I know from experience that cutting all stats in half will not work. But the three thoughts I have are as follows:
1. Boost all stats. 'All' because it's easy to do, plus I think some players who are still running around with a SHT of 1 could use the boost, but also because a boost to 10 CA is like 9 free goalie level-ups, while 10 SHT is like 3 free shooter level-ups, so the goalie still wins in the exchange (even if goalie went with all Keepa levels, it's still 6 free vs 3).
2. Withdraw the Golden Arm boost and have stats drop by 20% as they flow through the agua instead of 10%. I fear this option because it might also cause the return of League #2 if all people are taking on 3 defenders just to make a shot.
3. Hard-code something that requires all shooters be close to the net. Currently, they're restricted from shots on their own half of the pool. I COULD manually force them to wait longer, but I'd like to avoid that. This is my least favorite option.
Off to work, but that's my morning musings. I'll be thinking about this over the next little bit. Lemme know thoughts though.
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Post by monsoonexe on Mar 5, 2014 13:36:48 GMT -8
Yeah, we do want to keep the score up. I'm not fan of how in basketball the score is so high and it feels like it comes down to the last few minutes only, whereas soccer I need more excitement than just three or four goals total, so I don't want to make goalie super strong.
I see how widening the playing field isn't really practical. I like the idea of taking off the Golden Arm skill. That's an easy way to force the shooter closer to the net without altering base skills.
Maybe for every game a player spends in the goalie position they get 1 CA point at the end of the league/tourny.
Maybe every stat can get upped that way. If a player is in a forward position, at the end of that game they get a raise to any of the forward-related stats -- END, SHT. Center gives PAS, END. Defense gives ATK or BLK.
I don't see how a group-style tourny is different from a league.
Just throwing out some ideas.
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Post by Bob on Mar 5, 2014 19:16:57 GMT -8
The stat boost idea is interesting, but wouldn't work. For one, too much bookkeeping (ever since our Mallboro days, we learned that we need to keep bookkeeping out of our games). For another, goalies would eventually dominate since not only would the CA get unrealistically high eventually, but they also can play 10 games for every forward's 3 games.
The difference is that it's a different format from the league and is intended for a smaller, summative series. The league is to qualify you for the tourney, the tourney declares a winner. I almost think of leagues as being where we learn what our teams are capable of and learn good ways to use them, then we apply that in the tourney. That fact is largely why the Mercenaries do well in tourneys but not leagues--I learn as I go. Even group-style, it'll be a lot shorter than a league and it's more intense. Woo intensity! To the max!
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Post by Fleck on Mar 5, 2014 22:09:59 GMT -8
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I still want the league to stay intact. Our 9 game seasons are pretty functional and I don't really have a problem with them. It's the tournament style that I want to address. We've tried single-elimination and double-elimination and now I want to try the Group style that I suggested. I'm not saying that we should have a group style league or that the group should replace the league. I'm saying nothing about the league at all.
Just so we're clear.
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Post by Bob on Mar 5, 2014 22:43:18 GMT -8
I think he just meant this would be like 2 leagues. Definitely keeping the regular season leagues.
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