I'm angry about...

[bloodfestbutterfly]

Really, it's their own loss, too. I knew a guy who refised to play RE4 because "those aren't real zombies". He fails to see my point that using a rocket launcher to snipe things on scaffolds is a ton of fun.

[countlieberkuhn]

Yeah, when it comes down to it, it's always just about the fun. That's why I love the dynasty warriors games. I know they're overly simplistic, but damn are they gratifying.

Fleck: Yeah, menu-based stuff is where it's at, and what the entire genre spawned out of. When non-rpg games started using level up systems, they'd often be classified an FPS with RPG elements, and that made sense back when the original Deus Ex came out for example, as it was a pretty new idea at the time. But so many things use level up systems nowadays that it's not really definitive of an RPG anymore, despite the term 'RPG elements' still getting thrown around a lot.

It's kinda hard to quantify what an RPG is these days. Being old-fashioned, I still like my RPGs to have each battle held in it's own little instanced area, seperate from the world around it. Bonus points if the screen shatters or something during the transition.

[Fleck]

Mar 19, 2012 20:00:15 GMT -8 countlieberkuhn said:

I know a guy who refuses to even play the Uncharted games because they're 'rip-offs of Tomb Raider'....

Hahaha, and the fact that Tomb Raider is a rip-off of Indiana Jones which is a rip-off of classic adventure movies doesn't bother him at all?

RE4 is easily my favorite of the RE series. The Gamecube remake of the original Resident Evil was pretty badass too (CRIMSON HEADS!). I'm kind of angry at RE4 though, since pretty much all SH games are trying to copy it, it seems. I know it's not RE4's fault, but still...

[countlieberkuhn]

Yeah, that's the sort of thing that happens. Kinda like how every RPG after FF7 had young, brooding male leads with a dark past, only they missed the point and made them whiny to boot. Cloud was never a whiner nor emo, at least not until the FF7 universe got expanded with Advent Children.

And nope, he didn't seem to mind that Tomb Raider was a rip off of classic adventure movies What Uncharted really is is the spiritual successor of the Tomb Raider franchise, only without the insane difficulty and traps you can't possibly avoid without knowing they're there I liked the old Tomb Raiders, but I never did finish one without cheats XD

[Fleck]

I finished TR1 mostly without a walkthrough (took me friggin' hours and hours to do it though. The shoddy graphics and clipping issues made the hard puzzles nearly impossible. "Is that a key on the ground is just a graphics glitch?"). After that, I picked up TR2 and a walkthrough at the same time, knowing I didn't stand a chance without it. Good thing I did too, because TR2 is just unfair. The "Temple of Xian" level is absurdly massive and probably would have taken me a year to beat without a guide. I played TR3 as well (but I used cheats relentlessly to skip levels and get unlimited ammo), and that one is so unfair it borderline cheats.

After TR3, I skipped a lot of TR games until "Angel of Darkness," which sucked massive balls. I then played Legend, which was pretty decent.

Have you seen anything for the newest Tomb Raider they're making? It's another damn "gritty re-imagining" of Lara's origin story, because the industry isn't saturated with those quite yet. I have low expectations.

I'm angry about...

Gritty re-imaginings of my favorite games/movies.

[seflask]

I was okay with Nickleback but heard their music too much on the radio while in high school along with a lot of pop and rap music. Nickleback's music has been consistently repetitiive too though and that doesn't help.

I've always had a few issues with FFVII though I don't hate the game. I like it more then most of the FF's. Graphically it's okay. My problem with the graphics is the permanent facial expressions stuck on the characters and the inconsistency of the way the characters look in the CG's. Look at Cloud jumping on the Midgar train near the beginning and then the awakening of the weapons. I know that the more chibi/child like CG appearances are the game transitioning from the playing field to the characters but the inconsistency is still annoying.

Lot's of text ahead.

My biggest issue with FFVII is the lack of original story. I know I'll get some flack for this but there are too many coincidences with FFVI.
Group of rebels fights against world power: Returners and The Empire, Avalanche and Shinra
Head of empire murdered by subordinate: Kefka kills Gestahl, Spehiroth kills President Shinra
Final bosses take on the appearance of angels: I've been told that this is fairly common in JRPG's but since I haven't played too many I can't verify this.
The real villain is not the final boss: This one might be confusing. While I've read arguments that Jenova is the real villain of FFVII, she's already been "defeated" by the time the game takes place. Sephiroth and Meteor are just a distraction that must be dealt with and a distraction from the real villain. It's not Scarlet, Heidegger, Don Corneo, or Muki. It's Hojo. He follows you around. He takes over the Sister Ray. He's injected, or at least overseen the injection of the Jenova cells into Sephiroth, Zack, maybe Cloud (depends on how much of the truth he is telling/aware of), and many others. I am not absolving Sephiroth of his actions, considering that he didn't finish his research before torching Nibelheim and sending a presence of himself that you chase (remember, he's physically fused into the planet) around that can kill others but if you look at the game script closely, you'll see Hojo's influence pervades more then just when he is around.

So, who is the real villain of FFVI if it's not Kefka? First, we need to establish who the main character is. There are a lot of character sub-plots going on and the game is really more of a group effort then VII, which is Cloud with like minded traveling companions. Terra is the first playable character we see and since we either have her in the party a lot, are looking for her, or helping her find her identity as a being, she is the main character. She might struggle against Kefka, but there is one being that she fears more: Phunbaba. While Kefka has "won" by re-arranging the world and causing the great pallette swap, his defeat and such are a foregone conclusion. Terra runs into Phunababa while taking care of children in the ruins of Mobliz. And if he isn't defeated, she's gone for the rest of the game until the ending. While you don't have to get her back in your party (like Chrono in Chrono Trigger, and Lavos is the real villain there) or even use her in the final battle, she's the only character in the World of Ruin who is being tortured and threatened until you show up. Sure, you can lose Shadow if you are impatient on the Floating Continent but once you choose not to save Mobliz Terra is gone. You can always go back and get the other characters but she won't return. Phunbaba is such a deadly force that he can take out the main character, which leads me to my second to last comparison

Two playable characters permanently die: For FFVII we know it's Aeris. While much can be said about her death scene and the ensuing conversation pre AND post Jenova Life fight (that's a different topic though), we need to establish the character from VI. General Leo and Shadow don't count. It's Terra. She does physically die in that the esper in her is sucked out at the end of the game. While Aeris survives as a strong spirit/memory, Terra survives as a human. This one might be a bit of a stretch but it's there. An argument could be made about Palom and Porum from FFIV but they are un stoned at the end.

Last comparison: Aeris and Cele's themes are in the same key (D Major) and sound extremely similar to each other in their opening. Now which themes are we talking about? Each character has two themes: "Flowers Blooming in the Church" and "Aerith's Theme" for Aeris and "Cele's Theme" and "Aria de Mezo Caratere" for Celes. At the point of the characters best known/remembered moments (Aeris's death and the opera in VI) the songs are in the same key, time signature (common time) and at about the same tempo and sound almost interchangeable in many places.

So, the above are the reasons I have always somewhat disliked FFVII. It's a great game but for me, it sits in the shadow of FFVI and is found wanting.

I'm angry about people who hate FFVIII or any RPG because it's not FFVII.

[Bob]

I have to work and can't write a full response, but just saying, Tellah dies horribly. He's the first FF main cast death ever. If/when I get to a full response, I'll be saying something about how "any character you don't take might die." Don't forget that when Terra gets beat up by Phunbaba, she gets all pissed off, goes full esper, and beefcakes him (with Sabin's help, but nobody in FF6 can function without a Figaro). Basically, I don't count the Terra death parallel. Survey says: *blammm* X

And if your dislike for FF7 is that it copied FF6 so much, then don't forget how FF6 copied Star Wars

[seflask]

I forgot about Tellah. Crap.
I never considered the parallels between Star Wars and FFVI. I've never noticed any similiarities... aside from Setzer and Han being cocky pilots...

[countlieberkuhn]

I still think you're being unfair to FF7 on many accounts. FF6 might have had the returners and the Empire, but FF6 can't claim to have invented the 'band of rebels rise up and defeat evil superpower' storyline. It's just that it's a good one, so is worth using multiple times. And many FF's follow this type of story. FF9, and FF12 spring to mind.

I'll argue against Sephiroth not being the final villain. He is. Throughout the whole game you see these atrocities that either he, or Jenova masquerading as him, have committed. And at the stage of the game you're playing in, Jenova is being controlled by Sephiroth's immeasurable will. His actions may be the result of all the crap that happened to him as a result of Shinra, Hojo, et al, but at the end of the day Sephiroth is still the one with the power and intent to destroy the world. He calls meteor, which is far from a distraction. Pretty much only Sephiroth had the power to do this in the world - Hojo certainly couldn't have done this himself.

I'll agree that Hojo is one of the most important villains in terms of story contribution. He's the one responsible for almost everything Sephiroth does in an indirect way, but it's still Sephiroth doing it. And ultimately, you fight and kill Sephiroth in the final battle, because that's the logical final boss. It's not like the pulled a new villain out of their arse at the last moment.

I deny your argument that Terra dies! Losing her Esper side hardly counts as a death, she's still alive and she's happy to boot. She finds a purpose in life and despite accepting her origins, is also free of them, not to be used as a weapon again.

And while 6 is a good game, I'm not debating that, I think 7 has it trumped purely for the scope of its story. 7 is a game where they'd clearly thought SO much about the world, every characters' past and how they're connected, and told it in a really unique way - that is Cloud's broken memories - and used that to cleverly misdirect the player and often leave them to fill in some gaps for themselves. FF7 may not have loads of originality, but it's done to perfection. Sephiroth is still one of the most iconic and charismatic game villains ever, Aeris' death scene is still the best one in the FF series in terms of emotional impact, and even the masses of side characters enjoy plenty of development. Managing to make EVERY Shinra executive + Turk have a memorable personality is damn impressive, considering there's probably about of dozen of them.

I agree that one bit in the Opera sounds almost identical to Aeris' theme, but I don't think that should take away anything from Aeris. Nobuo Uematsu took that one bit of melody and turned it into it's own fantastic tune, and there really isn't much of a comparison between Aeris and Celes beyond that.

Also you can't complain about the permanent facial expressions on the characters in FF7, when the same was true of the old 2d sprites

[seflask]

I said I'd get flack for this and there it is.

I never said that FFVI invented the rebels vs empire story. The comparison was that both groups are in active rebellion from the beginning, not gradually like in IX. I haven't played XII so no comment.

Take a look at the sprites here: www.videogamesprites.net/FinalFantasy6/Party/
Pay attention to their eyes and lips. Aside from a blink in FFVII, what can the playing field characters do (besides moving their heads)?

I argue that if Jenova is masquerading as Sephiroth until the black materia hand off then she would be the villain and that the control is from Jenova and that Sephiroth is merely a receiving container in the cavern. When you fight him at the end, he has no grand speech to give like other final bosses. I wouldn't be surprised if the only keeping him alive were the Jenova cells. Also, he/Jenova said he wanted to wound the planet and suck up the lifestream, not destroy it.

Sephiroth's post Nibelheim murderous rampage is quite interesting to look at. The only spots I can immediately recall with his bloodshed are the Shinra Tower and boat, Tseng in the temple, and Aeris. After that it's up the mountain and to the cavern to awake the Weapons. Sure, many of the "called ones" don't make it but Sephirothnova is not there chopping them down. Anyways, so we have two massacres in Shinra buildings and a Shinra employee who chose the wrong time to be there. So it's all Shinra, which could be Jenova's revenge for her imprisonment. Is it merely coincidence that she is removed from her cell the same day Cloud shows up? If Sephiroth is so powerful, he wouldn't have needed so many years to get one person with Jenova cells in them to get to Jenova so he could "free her". If anything, she frees herself and attempts to bring her cells back together using a guise she knows will call Cloud to her, hopefully with the black materia. This leaves us with Aeris. Aeris is Cetra and either Jenova is finishing what she started or Sephiroth is finishing what Jenova started. If you watch the ending cinema for FFVII you'll see Holy doesn't help. It makes things worse. Either she dies because of a grudge or Sephiroth feels threatened by ineffective materia.

I know that anyone here can find holes in my arguments here, especially since I just made Sephiroth to sound like a non-sentient receiving unit.

I'm also angry that Square cut out Zacks execution from the US version. That scene helped explain a lot.

[wyvernxk7]

I remember Zack getting shot on that cliff... is that the scene you're talking about, because there's a way to watch it. I think you have to go back to the mansion at a certain point in the game.

[Fleck]

Ha... it's always funny to see what happens when someone attacks FF7, even a little bit.

Anyway, my thoughts.

Plot-wise, FF7 does take a lot from FF6. This is pretty much undeniable. I'd say that 6 and 7 are probably the most similar in terms of plot of any two given Final Fantasies. But to be fair, Square was kinda on a "Evil empire must be overthrown" kick for the middle portion of the series. The Kingdom of Baron from FF4, arguably X-Death's "Kingdom" (if it can be called that) from 5, the Empire from 6, and Shinra from 7. But while each of those games follows roughly the same format, it's hard to argue that they copy each other, since each game goes in such wildly different directions with their story. They all may start the same, but they don't end the same, or go the same places.

What I really want to say, though, is something I think I've said on the forums before, and that's my theory that the difference between Sephiroth and Jenova is academic at best. Sephiroth, unlike all the other characters of the game, was injected with Jenova cells before birth, so Jenova is literally a part of his identity from the beginning. This aspect of himself doesn't really manifest until the Nibelheim incident, but he was never normal. Jenova was always there, if only as a means to augment his strength. After Sephiroth fell into the lifestream, Seph and Jenova become almost completely indistinguishable. Next we see Sephiroth, he talks like Jenova, he wants the same things as Jenova, and really he IS Jenova. You can argue that it's just a projection of Jenova, that's why it wants what Jenova wants, but once you free the real Sephiroth, it's not like he comes out and says, "Woah, woah, guys. That wasn't me. I didn't mean any of that." Once freed, Sephiroth continues with the plan as if he HAD been the one doing all that. Sephiroth and Jenova have become the same thing.

I think this point was expanded on further in Advent Children. When Jenova is reformed, she/it takes Sephiroth's form, and when Sephiroth talks, he talks about finishing Jenova's work. Jenova wants to be in Sephiroth's form, and Sephiroth wants to complete Jenova's work.

A good parallel to this, I think, is Dune. Children of Dune, specifically. The character Alia possesses all the memories of the evil Baron Harkonnen. Eventually those memories overtake her consciousness, and she is unable to distinguish between her own thoughts and the thoughts of Harkonnen. In this way, Alia becomes Harkonnen, and begins enacting his plans, thinking they are her own.

Pretty much the same thing happens with Sephiroth. Once he becomes aware of the Jenova cells in his body, they begin to take over his will. Once he's tossed into the Lifestream, he becomes "a traveler of the Lifestream," in his own words, at which point he inherits even more memories and loses more of his individuality. The Jenova cells completely take him over, and at the end, there is no real difference between the two. Jenova prefers Sephiroth's body and uses it as a projection of herself. Sephiroth's memories and desires have fused with Jenova's and he enacts her plan. By the time FF7 is nearing the end, there is no real difference between the two.

Anyway, that's my theory.

[countlieberkuhn]

See, that's more to like about FF7. Enough of the story is left open to allow for all these theories and debates

As for Dune, I've only read the first book in the series for that I'm afraid

[bloodfestbutterfly]

An additional notion proposed from Sephiroth's FFWiki page is that he takes over Jenova's will by Advent Children's time, due to his aspiration to take the planet with him. She used to travel alone and land on new planets, then masquerade as the planet's denizens to encroach and overtake, but this time, the planet's comin' with. Nice.

[wyvernxk7]

Angry about shine.yahoo.com/love-sex/wisconsin-lawmaker-says-women-stay-abusive-marriages-232700220.html?fb_action_ids=1952281061988%2C10150630246067297%2C3347769929720%2C3520321052782%2C10150610522632135&fb_action_types=news.reads&fb_source=other_multiline&code=AQC9zvSPvtinT-HV4vOPiXLcIomEjAHF9_JSP3qCCk0aTybDhZVaDp8voX2uNR-T-m2OmRjkAu2lA8VMdlQnkdR_YreYuTQuP1_UtvQsaHW35daWQMgDWmi3F0-tEfwBubKFA7yhOc0j_8HuAB1U2WrhBE46JvfVx4DT5rOwUqUTWbKLKhOT9inXJyVU5bszrdlfS2ITwbdrRjEG_AZuvC5L#_=_ Wisconsin.