Remember That Time

[Bob]

That Colossus is a DICK. Holy shit that's unbalanced. The other one is okay-ish, though I do think infect is cheap as crap. But that Colossus...damn. I think that some cards like that, people think "but it's balanced because who's gonna have 12 colorless mana floating around?" and I point to a typical elf deck where I can sometimes get as much as like 90 mana. But seriously. Indestructible, TRAMPLE, and 11/11? Bull. Shit. And on top of that, he just pops back to your library when he dies. Laaaame.

I started playing during Mercadian Mask's end and Nemesis's beginning, but I always attached onto the Urza sets. I wasn't huge in Urza's Legacy, but I LOVED Urza's Destiny and Urza's Saga. They're easily my two favorite sets. But what I liked about MM and Nem were that they still really worked toward balance. I had a couple of Skyshroud Behemoths that were just awesome (at the time). Check him out:

static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGNEM/skyshroud_behemoth.jpg

High mana cost, comes into play tapped, and he dies in two turns (two playable turns, that is). He...kinda sucks. But his 10/10-ness makes him great. I've always wanted to make a deck based on the following three cards, but I could never get enough.

gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=5594&type=card

www.coolstuffinc.com/images/Products/mtg%20art/Urzas%20Destiny/Repercussion.jpg

card.mtgdeckbuilder.net/URD/77.jpg

and maybe a www.coolstuffinc.com/images/Products/mtg%20art/Sixth/Inferno.jpg for the Repercussion.

Then I'd toss in as many big creatures as I wanted because, hell, I'm going to Sneak Attack all of my creatures for 1 red, so who cares if they're green, white, black, whatever. The best part is that I'd hopefully pay for a Bloodshot Cyclops to stay in forever, so I sneak somebody in, attack with haste, and instead of sacrificing my creature at end of turn, Chuck chucks them at the player. Shazam! The problem? Sneak Attacks are $20 on a good day. And umm, no. Those others are fun, too. I have one Sneak Attack, one Bloodshot Cyclops, one Repercussion, and one Inferno, but it's hard to build a deck that relies on pulling cards that I only have one of. Best part of Inferno though is that all of my guys (except maybe Chuck) are being Sneak Attacked, so I'll essentially have none. So if my opponents do, I play an Inferno (with a Repercussion in play) and they take 6 x (n+1) damage, where n is the number of creatures. If they have 3 or more creatures....THEY LOSE! (Unless they gained life).

But le sigh. I never got more of those, and now just a friggin BOOSTER PACK of Destiny costs $20. Nnnnnnnnnnope! Not paying that! Not now, not ever.

But back to today's powerful cards, my point is that older decks were balanced. My 10/10 creature had several MAJOR drawbacks. Fading sucked, but it was a way to introduce big creatures without being cheap as hell. Now, look at THIS motherfucker (he's who I was talking about before):

www.cartamagicastore.com/images/MTG_RotE/0011-Spawnsire-of-Ulamog.jpg

So! For 20 mana, you can play an Eldrazi THAT ISN'T EVEN IN YOUR FUCKING DECK! I think he can only pull from your sideboard, from what I gather (sideboard being up to 15 cards that you might substitute into your deck before the game, but not during, often used for tournaments where you might find out your next opponent has a blue deck, so you swap out your red protection and swap in some blue). So the drawback is that you can either put your Eldrazi IN your deck and hope to draw them, or you keep them on the side and hope to get the guy that pulls them in. But either way, it's total crap. At LEAST make this guy a color so that you can't just plop him into any old elf deck!

SPEAKING OF ELVES! I forgot my other card that's important for my elf-rebel deck! THIS MOTHERFUCKER! static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGUDS/elvish_piper.jpg Ohh I loves him. He's kinda cheating. He's why I keep giant creatures in my elf/rebel deck. Oh no, I can't play afford my Thorn Elemental? Well, let's rebel -> elf rebel -> Elvish Piper, then pay a G for him!

static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGUDS/thorn_elemental.jpg Thorny. People used to talk about how awesome he was. I was so pumped when I pulled a Thorn Elemental.

[countlieberkuhn]

Ah yeah, now I remember the Spawnspire fella. I've never seen that move played luckily, and I don't think I've ever seen the spawnspire played more than twice, ever. Ok, that 20 ability is retarded, but the rest of his kit as actually on the weak side for an Eldrazi. The three legendary Eldrazi, Ulamog, Emrakul and Kozilek, are all indestructible, have Annihilator 4 or more (annihilator is LAME) and all have this mechanic where if they go to the graveyard, you shuffle your ENTIRE graveyard back into your library. A single Eldrazi in your deck can pretty much negate any milling strategy. For them and that evil Colossus, white actually is the only reliable removal out there. You pretty much NEED exile on hand when an Eldrazi or that Colossus is put into play, otherwise you're buggered. Unless it's Emrakul, because he's got protection from all coloured spells, and when he comes into play, you take another turn. There is no beating Emrakul.

I like that Thorn Elemental, he reminds me a lot of one of my favourite green creatures, Rhox. gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106504. And actually, the balance is pretty similar between those two. Rhox is one less mana, but only a 5/5 with a reasonably costly regenerate. Tenth edition isn't THAT old, only 4 years ago, so it seems the power ramp is a pretty recent thing.

I love the satisfaction of seeing what rare you pull in a booster pack. It's like meth in card form. I remember the first MTG cards I bought for myself were a red/green intro pack from Worldwake, and in the free booster pack that came with it I pulled this guy.

gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=195297

He's worth something like £40 on average when sold, but didn't realise for ages until I played him in a green/blue deck I made during a free for all and my friends were like O.O you have JACE!? *attacks*. His ultimate ability is pretty much an instant kill button, so he gets targetted hard.

I LOVE that repercussion spell though. Me and my friends are having our first MTG tournament on Sunday, just a friendly thing (everyone chips in 1 quid and the winner gets a booster pack from it), and I'm going to use my red burn/land destruction deck. Repercussion would be fantastic, especially as I often find myself torn between damaging the player or one of their creatures. Unfortunately it's £2.45 on mana leak, and I have this rule where I don't spend more than £1 on a single card. There's a lot of damn good cards out there, but you need to draw the line somewhere or it can get very expensive. So, sod £20 for a booster

[Fleck]

[countlieberkuhn]

CHILDREN'S CARD GAMES ARE SERIOUS BUSINESS!

[Bob]

Wow, Jace is a DICK. I never had any of those kinds of creatures that either level-up or have an ability like Jace. I kiiinda like level-up creatures, but don't really love the Jace player-cards or whatever. They're just too good. There should be a downside for getting that +2 like losing life or giving the opponent a creature or something.

I like Rhox, too. I have two Rhoxs, but only one Thorn Elemental. Either way, they're awesome. I THINK I prefer Thorn Elemental since that extra 7 HP makes him hard to kill anyway, plus the rules on regeneration are strange to me so sometimes I avoid them. What I gather on regeneration is that if you use it, then it requires a tap, so you don't deal damage, either, so if a 5/5 something attacks or blocks your 5/5 Rhox, then you regenerate Rhox, your Rhox becomes tapped regardless of attack or block and neither creature deals damage. It's...weird, and I don't play with super-nerds often, so I kind of limit my regeneration usage because the rules are so iffy.

Yeah, I suppose Repercussion isn't a ton, but I also have this thing about buying individual cards. I dunno, I enjoy booster packs so much and that thrill from seeing what you got (even though I have a fuckin' million of this one card that is ABSOLUTE SHIT AND IT PISSES ME OFF) This is the guy: static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGPRO/troublesome_spirit.jpg I HATE this card! I stopped buying this set because I pulled him like, 3 times I think? And only bought maybe five or six boosters of this pack, giving him a 50% or greater average. Ugh! He's not terrible except that any good blue deck requires your land be untapped for counterspells. There are better 3/4 flyers for cheap that don't fuck you over like this guy. Still, digressing, I like to build my own cards using all cards that I've pulled myself. Something about working with what you have and not buying what you need that's fun. Though I might be rich enough soon that I'll consider giving up that rule

Fleck: Nice. But am I mixing movies, or does he become a nerd in the sequel? I've only seen bits of the Revenge of the Nerds sequel on Comedy Central because it looked terrible, so I'm not sure.

[countlieberkuhn]

Yeah, Planeswalker cards are weird, but not TOO bad. The game treats them as a 'player', and any spells that can target a player can also target a planeswalker. Also, when declaring attackers, you can choose to have some attackers attack the planeswalker instead of the player, and the planeswalker loses counters equal to the amount of damage received. Jace starts with 3 counters, so essentially starts on 3 life. If he goes to 0, then he goes to the graveyard. All abilities have to be cast as a sorcery, and only once per turn. Planeswalkers are good, but thankfully there are a lot of ways to deal with one. Hell, if you waited for Jace to make his +2 play (as he doesn't have summoning sickness), then cast a lightning bolt, it'll resolve first and Jace is dead. Then again my answer to everything I don't like is lightning bolt. A friend of mine makes fantastic use of vampire hexmages in his main deck (vampires) to kill planeswalkers for only 2 mana, and there's nothing you can do about it.

gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=192232

As for regeneration, it's one of those mechanics that comes under scrutiny often, but I'm pretty sure the rules state that if a creature would be sent to the graveyard, before it resolves you may pay a regeneration cost. If you do, the creature stays in play, but becomes tapped. Damage is still dealt by Rhox in this case, because all combat damage is resolved before anything would go to the graveyard, unless the thing that killed it has first strike.

Of course, the rulings for regeneration might have changed over time.

That blue card is pretty bad really, especially for a rare. I really hate drawing white or blue rares/mythics in a booster, Jace excluded, just because I never use 'em. I pulled a rare blue gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220099 card in a recent M12 booster, and it's a card I knew a friend wanted (he loves blue and hates red) so I thought I'd be able to wangle a nice trade. Turns out the day before he'd ordered 3 of the buggers at £4 each. Madness!

[Bob]

Ah, that makes Planeswalker cards better, but that's still pretty complicated. And that hexmage is pretty cool.

I think regeneration has changed somewhat, but like many MTG concepts, things have changed so much that you have to almost debate what rules you like in advance (or if you're like me, just when they come up). It's too complicated. Like, now, combat rules allow an attacker to split up damage among multiple blockers even if he doesn't have trample (trample now seems to only matter for hitting the player). It used to be that if you didn't have trample, then multiple blockers were great because you just put something stupid in the way first, he dies, and the rest of your useful-but-pathetic troops like mana-producing elves can help to topple a big monster without the fear of mass genocide. Not the case anymore, it seems. I'll sure show my nephew who's boss when we play again!

EDIT: And it seems that regeneration requires removal from combat. On an FAQ site, it says (and I quote and the FAQ page also quotes): "Regenerate [permanent]" means "The next time [permanent] would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage from it, tap it, and (if it's in combat) remove it from combat." So I don't think Rhox would still deal damage because it's being removed from combat. They elaborate more:

"If I regenerate an attacking or blocking creature is it still considered attacking/blocking and does it still deal combat damage?

Activating or triggering a regeneration ability does not remove the creature from combat or prevent it from dealing damage. It simply creates a "regeneration shield". Unless the creature is dealt lethal damage or destroyed, the regeneration effect will not be applied so the creature will still be attacking and still deal/receive combat damage as normal.

If, before the Combat Damage Step, the creature is destroyed or dealt lethal damage, the regeneration effect will be applied and remove the creature from combat. In this case, the creature will cease to be an attacking/blocking creature. It must still be an attacking or blocking creature when its combat damage would be assigned in order for it to deal combat damage.

Note that if, after blockers are declared, the blocking creature is regenerated and removed from combat, the attacking creature is still considered blocked. It will not deal damage to the opponent unless it has trample."

It's...complicated. I think original confusion was because regenerate was originally an ability requiring a tap, but not anymore, so people were like "WTF?" and it got very convoluted. I think it makes sense, but it's...strange.

[Fleck]

Aug 17, 2011 14:41:34 GMT -8 Bob said:

Fleck: Nice. But am I mixing movies, or does he become a nerd in the sequel? I've only seen bits of the Revenge of the Nerds sequel on Comedy Central because it looked terrible, so I'm not sure.

Not a damn clue. I only saw the first one.

[countlieberkuhn]

From what's written there, I still gather that what I was thinking was right, because although it says 'if that creature was in combat, remove it from combat', if it was dealt lethal damage by a creature, then the regenerating creature must have also dealt its damage to the blocker because combat damage is assigned simultaneously for both sides, unless first strike or double strike is involved. Being removed from combat is probably stated more for the purposes of certain card mechanics that might read 'destroy target creature currently in combat' or something. At least that's my thinking, and it's how my friends play it, but it could be wrong XD

I gotta admit though, some mechanics in MTG are pretty dang ambiguous. 'Sacrifice' has caused many a debate about how it can work, especially during combat. Turns out that if you block with a creature, and then sacrifice by any means as an instant, the sacrificed creature will STILL block the attacking creature, even though it's technically dead, and the attackers' damage goes nowhere.

And yeah, you're right about trample. The old way of having one blocker chosen by the defender and the rest dealing combat damage unthreatened does sound a bit dodgy to me, as it gives too much control to the defender. This is probably my red side talking, but I think giving the attacker the choice of what blockers he attacks is good, as it adds more depth to the decision making of both players. The defender has to choose which cards he's willing to risk losing to a strong attacker in order to kill it, and the attacker has to choose which of the assigned blockers are the biggest threats. Trample's still a nice mechanic though - overrun's STILL the best sorcery in the game in my opinion, and it seems pretty old.

[Bob]

Heh, yeah, 'Sacrifice' is fun. The way I've always understood it is that you can't block AND sacrifice unless the creature survives the attack. That's how I use it when I play. But yeah, it's sketchy. I THINK you're allowed to block with it, then sacrifice it prior to the "Deal Damage" phase, so the attacking creature WILL be blocked, but he won't be dealt any damage since the creature was gone prior to damage. It's just absolute insanity though.

I never had overrun, but it's pretty good, yes. At least in the right deck. You might enjoy Wildfire in your red damage/destruction deck. I'd have to think about the best sorcery though. It's debatable based on deck preference, too. Hell, one of my favorites is the Corrupt. I have a black deck that has basically Corrupts, Pestilences, Regenerating Creatures (for Pestilence purposes), and a ton of Swamps. That's...about it. It's my best deck for sure.

[bloodfestbutterfly]

*adjusts glasses, hipster-style* I quit playing Magic years ago...It got too godmoddy and insta-kill for me.

[countlieberkuhn]

Wildfire does look pretty fun. I actually have a large multiplayer-only deck which is where I shove all my cards which pretty much screw everyone over with cards similar to wildfire. Any new ones like it I grab, in they go.

Ah, I just remembered the one card that made me rage in a game once. Was a good game, I had the advantage in creatures and 10 life, so I thought I'd put some pressure on by attacking with my fliers and leaving the non-fliers for defense, bringing him down to about 2 health. He had only the one 1/1 flier and chose not to block them. Next turn, he plays this and wins.

gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193492

THIS is the most overpowered eldrazi card. The absolute minimum you can get is a 10/11 trample with annihilator 4, which is already absurd considering an actual eldrazi of that strength requires 10 mana minimum. And unless your creature has shroud, there's no limit to how many other overpowered things you could do with it, like attach it to a first striker, infecter, flier, landwalker, etc. I believe "THAT'S FUCKING BULLSHIT!" was my exact phrasing at seeing this card.

[Bob]

Heh, yyyeeah, I don't care for Eldrazi. I was thinking of someday buying a few Eldrazi-calibur pre-cons (pre-constructed decks) just so I could play against my nephew better, since he has a lot of new-generation cards. But I think if you want to play Eldrazi, you have to play Eldrazi vs Eldrazi (or otherwise overpowered cards) and have at least 40 life each. I heard Wizards people were talking about bumping the life total up to 40, but I dunno if anything came of it. But it might be fun to play older decks vs older decks with 20 life, then newer decks vs newer decks with 40 life. It just makes more sense when the creatures have taken the former "this guy is huge" card and DOUBLED him! I think the absolute highest creature enchantment I've ever seen is maybe a +4/+4, and that's without trample and annihilator 4.

[countlieberkuhn]

Yeah, most enchantments aren't that bad. I've got a pretty modern green enchantment from the Zendikar block, which gives +3/+3 for 3 mana. That seems fair, its like a permanent giant growth and an extra 2 mana is worth that. Adding an additional 5 mana to the cost does not constitute also giving trample and annihilator 4, and +10/+10. Hell, I'd say 8 mana for +10/+10 alone is fair for a rare, the other two bonuses are just ridiculous.

[Bob]

A neat green enchantment is Momentum. I like that one. It gives +X/+X for counters you can add each turn. Good for pumping up a creature over time. Get an elf, use him for mana, then when you don't need his mana anymore, he's a KILLING FORCE!