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Post by Fleck on Jan 16, 2011 16:39:14 GMT -8
Major Themes of the Game
Farting:
This is an easy one. What with the main characters being named Squall Leonfart and Rinoa Fartilly, you know that the creators were going to run hard with the fart theme. In fact, "Fart" can be found in so many places, I don't even have time to list them all. GF's like Fartzacotl, Ifart, Fartamut. Places like Farting Man's Horizon and Tomb of the Unknown Fart. The fact that "Fart" is stronger than Ultima, and junctioning 100 of them to any one stat makes all your characters smell awful. It also features heavily in many plot elements, like the Lunar Fart. It just goes on and on.
Midgets with Shotguns
FF Wiki lists at least 407 named characters who are midgets with shotguns. Some of them are harder to find, like Queenie Fartson, who has a bronzed shotgun above her mantle, but it's very hard to spot and never mentioned in game. I can't personally attest to FF Wiki's number of 407, but given the fact that fourteen Triple Triad Cards feature this theme (like "Cactuar with a Shotgun" and "Biggs, Wedge, and a Midget with a Shotgun"), I feel that this number is at least close to the truth.
Jesus:
The J-Man is a theme in every video game that doesn't want to go to hell, and this game is no exception. The Jesus spell is the only spell that can beat a triple casting of Fart, but casting Jesus summons the end of the world and results in an immediate game over, so it must be used in only the darkest of circumstances. He also follows behind the party on foot, even when they travel to space. When stupid people ask, "How did Jesus make it to the moon on foot?" you need only answer, "He's Jesus, duh," and laugh at their stupidity.
Character Analysis
Squall:
On the surface:
Squall enjoys beans in a way that normally results in hospitalization or jail time.
The Deeper Layers:
Deep down, Squall is harboring the memories of the time a farting midget with a shotgun murdered his entire family in front of his eyes. His obsession with beans is both a form of self-punishment born of guilt and a way to better understand the midget who murdered his parents. Jesus frequently insists that revenge and beans is not the way into Heaven, but Squall ignores him.
Why a leader?:
The character with the strongest motivations for revenge is always the leader. It's a rule.
Rinoa:
On the surface:
Rinoa hates beans.
The Deeper Layers:
Rinoa, paradoxically, loves people who eat beans, despite the fact that she hates everything about beans. Her master plan is to allow Squall to get his revenge on the farting midget with a shotgun so that he can finally release his bean obsession and focus on his love for Rinoa. Jesus offers her magic beans but she refuses.
Why not a leader?:
She's a girl.
Zell:
On the surface:
Zell is a woman pretending to be a man and overcompensating by acting loud, macho, rude, and shadow boxing at every opportune moment.
The Deeper Layers:
Zell is secretly a man pretending to be a woman pretending to be a man.
Why not a leader?:
He dies on the car ride to Balamb, choking to death on Squall's noxious farts in the airtight car.
Selphie:
On the surface:
Selphie is an ordinary girl.
The Deeper Layers:
Though it is never explicitly stated in the main game, it is clear from sidequests and conversations with NPCs that after Zell dies, Selphie takes his clothes and assumes his identity, while maintaining her own identity. This explains why Zell and Selphie are never allowed in the same party together, and why the midget with a shotgun refers to her as a "she pretending to be a he pretending to be a she" instead of a "he pretending to be a she pretending to be a he" as he is the only character with the ability to smell the Y-Chromosome.
Why not a leader?:
She's a girl.
Irvine:
On the surface:
A midget with a shotgun.
The Deeper Layers:
Nothing to see here. He's just a midget with a shotgun. Jesus assures Squall that Irvine is NOT the midget with a shotgun who murdered his parents, which allows Squall to trust him with minimal interrogative waterboarding.
Why not a leader?:
Irvine's flat, one-dimensional personality makes it hard for him to stand out in a world full of midgets with shotguns.
Quistis:
On the surface:
A sexy teacher lady with a whip who punishes the "naughty" male and female students in her "examination room." Her classes are reported to have the most disciplinary actions taken, yet also the highest attendance rate.
The Deeper Layers:
She is secretly the farting midget with a shotgun who murdered Squall's parents. She is, in fact, TWO midgets sharing one brain standing on top of each other to appear normal-sized.
Why not a leader?:
Because she's evil. And a girl.
Seifer:
On the surface:
Fart.
The Deeper Layers:
Fart?
Why not a leader?:
Fart!
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Post by countlieberkuhn on Jan 16, 2011 19:30:24 GMT -8
A good read, though I find it interesting (in a good way) that only a couple of weeks ago or so, you were saying that you disliked most of FF8's female casts for being uninteresting, but now have changed your opinion and realised that Rinoa and Selphie have a lot going for them. Unfortunately Quistis will always be that one character who is on your party but ultimately inconsequential, but nevermind.
I've been meaning to play FF8 again, since over the years I've read lots of people's opinions about the games, theories such as the 'Squall is in a Coma' theory, and I really want to play the game through again to see if my perspectives on everything have changed. Only £7 to download on the PS3, so I'll probably do it over the summer or something.
Anyway, I enjoyed this analysis, and you touched on points I hadn't thought about myself, or heard from anyone else, such as the comparisons between Squall and Irvine both changing themselves for the girl they like, but for different reasons. I have always genuinely thought that while Irvine may have originally liked Selphie because she's his first crush, the most innocent, likely the only female virgin of the group, and represented the highest degree of challenge and conquest value, by the end of the game he genuinely cared for her and saw her as a lot more than just another notch on the ol' bedpost. Its his realisation that a girl can be more than just an object for sexual gratification and instead can provide him with the companionship and reassurance he needs to ease his real, insecure self that changes him, while as you say Squall changes more because Rinoa wants him to.
That being said, I hadn't noticed that Selphie almost always has her back to, or ignores Irvine most of the time. I noticed during the times when he's using some dodgy chat up lines on her, but otherwise no. If that's the case, it makes me wonder how much of Irvine's changing of himself is attributed to Selphie, and how much is just something that came from the maturity of being thrown into a conflict that the fate of the world itself rests upon, and being supported by his new/old friends through it all.
Connections is an important theme in FF8, but one thing you left out which I always considered to be an important theme of love unique to this game is how the more-or-less unrequited love between Laguna and Julia (which amounted to nothing more than a one-night stand due to unfortunate circumstance) is fulfilled through their children.
Laguna deserves a mention, because he's one of the deeper, more complex characters in the game, even if he gets relatively little screen time. He's a nice guy who met the love of his life, but due to him getting injured in the war he finds himself being looked after by Raine, and becoming a father figure for Ellone. He's pretty happy with his new, peaceful life, but he seems plagued by the notion of 'what if?' where Julia's concerned. In fact, I seem to remember Julia felt the same way, since when he hears 'Eyes on Me' for the first time, Raine tells him that it was written about the love of her life. Since the lyrics clearly are about the two of them, Laguna is clearly torn up by it, particularly when he hears she married someone else, and he settles for marrying Raine in the end. I think he did genuinely love her in the end, but more for her kindness and the fact she could give him the kind of peaceful, family life he always dreamed of, rather than for that special spark he had for Julia.
Also, it's interesting to note that Laguna, despite his very emotionally attached nature, particularly when compared to Squall, has not affected his leadership qualities. In fact, he's probably the most inspirational leader the world had to offer, thanks especially to his compassion and his ability to see things through no matter what, even if things go wrong along the way. He's held in particularly high regard in the Shumi tribe for trying to teach the Moombas to speak, and eventually its his desire to save Ellone and his compassion towards a lowly Moomba during his imprisonment in Esthar that springs him into action, becoming leader of a resistance movement, and ultimately the new President of Esthar, essentially becoming the most powerful man in the world. He's perhaps a less qualified leader than Squall in terms of having the logical mindset needed to get the best results from a situation, but his ability to inspire people into following him through kindness puts him in a league of his own.
If it weren't for a lot of the downtime in Winhill, a game dedicated to Laguna's story would probably work pretty well in its own merits, but the fact that they're able to weave his pretty fleshed out story into one about a seemingly unrelated group of people and make it relevant is pretty good storytelling in my book. The game unfortunately suffers from some strange plot points later on, but most of the best FF games are about the integrity of the characters and the relationships between them as they all become major players in a plot that could spell the end of the world, rather than the quality of the plot itself.
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Post by Fleck on Jan 17, 2011 4:00:23 GMT -8
I have always genuinely thought that while Irvine may have originally liked Selphie because she's his first crush, the most innocent, likely the only female virgin of the group, and represented the highest degree of challenge and conquest value, by the end of the game he genuinely cared for her and saw her as a lot more than just another notch on the ol' bedpost. Its his realisation that a girl can be more than just an object for sexual gratification and instead can provide him with the companionship and reassurance he needs to ease his real, insecure self that changes him.... Yeah, I wanted to bring that up during my post, but I ended up forgetting a lot of things. Connections is an important theme in FF8, but one thing you left out which I always considered to be an important theme of love unique to this game is how the more-or-less unrequited love between Laguna and Julia (which amounted to nothing more than a one-night stand due to unfortunate circumstance) is fulfilled through their children. I've always been a little creeped out by that concept. It seems like pseudo-incest to me, when I think too much about it.  I don't like to think that their parents were almost their parents, if you know what I mean. Crap, time for "work." Talk more later. |
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Post by countlieberkuhn on Jan 17, 2011 9:14:55 GMT -8
Really? I've always found that to be one of those rare plot points that makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. Dunno why. Squall's dad may have banged Rinoa's mum once, but that's hardly incest. Admittedly it would be pretty weird for them if they ever found out what their parents got up to before they were born, but that's neither here nor there. Besides, it's not like in Star Wars, where Leia kisses Luke in Episode 4 I think it was, then in Episode 6 she casually mentions that she always had an inkling that they were siblings all along when Luke tells her about it. THAT'S creepy |
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Post by Fleck on Jan 17, 2011 9:27:10 GMT -8
LEAVE STAR WARS OUT OF THIS!
And yes, the twincest thing is creepy, but so is the Laguna/Raine/Julia/Caraway Love Tangle. It's just... confusing to me. Squall's dad could have been Rinoa's dad too (but then she wouldn't be Rinoa and then the love story would have been UBER creepy). And also, since Laguna never really seems to get over Julia, and Julia never seems to get over Laguna, I get the feeling that they were both just settling for second best. Both points absolutely demolish any sense of romance I get from the connection. In any case, it's just easier for me to not think of it at all.
So. No major disagreements with my assessments of the characters/themes? Everything make sense, with no crazy jumps in logic?
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Post by countlieberkuhn on Jan 17, 2011 12:02:20 GMT -8
I think that's sort of what makes Julia and Laguna's lives tragically realistic, in that neither of them really ends up happily ever after with their soulmate, but they settle for the best they can, like most people do. I like the depth that gives. As I said, its been a long time since I last played FF8, probably not in 9 years now, so I lack enough memory of the game to be able to register the finer details of the plot and subtext in the dialogue and body language. I've had to refer to the FF wiki to check on plot points I'm unsure about regarding anything Ellone-related for Mallboro as a result. Everything you say sounds plausible, and I am inclined to agree with you, but until I replay the game I'm in no position to argue most of what you said. I'll be keeping an eye out for stuff you mentioned though, when I do play it again, hopefully in the near future. |
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Post by nobodyspecial on Jan 17, 2011 14:12:05 GMT -8
I've played it recently, like about a few months ago, and I pretty much agree with everything that's been said. No crazy jumps in logic, it all sounds pretty plausible. In fact, that's why I didn't post earlier, didn't feel I had much to add.
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Post by agent0042 on Jan 17, 2011 14:42:49 GMT -8
That was a great examination. I think I might reference it to some people I know on other boards. Would you give permission for it to be copied, with credit?
Also, would you consider adding an analysis of either Edea, Ultimecia or both?
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Post by Fleck on Jan 17, 2011 16:00:44 GMT -8
Thanks for the praise but umm... I find my write up to be horribly unpolished, with many omissions and unclear points (and I was planning on doing an Ultimecia and Edea too). I wrote it because I'm planning an FF8 fanfic and I wanted to see if my views on the characters were too extreme or involved too many inferences to be believable. So I don't really have a problem with you sharing it, but I don't really think it's that great of a write-up. Referencing it is fine by me though.
If you're really set on sharing it verbatim, then I might be convinced to create a more professional, polished version if you'd like, with clarified ideas and more proof. But that would take me awhile and I too, am in the midst of moving and stuff, so it'd be awhile before it'd be done.
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Post by Bob on Jan 17, 2011 16:14:10 GMT -8
...huff....wheeze....pant.....finally....finished....reading.
Yeah, a lot of that is really interesting. Agreed with comments and agreed with all EXCEPT that I'll offer another option for Selphie/Irvine dating. What if Selphie is embarrassed about dating Irvine? You mention that he's similar to Squall and that he wears a facade of objectifying women and such, but what if Selphie, in private, knows Irvine better and knows him to be a great guy, but the way Irvine presents himself embarrasses her, so whenever people are around, she changes the subject? It would explain her body language and her subject changing, while also explaining her jealous outburst at the end of the game.
And as you said with Zell keeping a private life, any private times among the FF8 cast are entirely possible. The spotlight is on Squall and Rinoa, so maybe Quistis has some secret, awesome life and she's just not very invested in that sorceress crap. Maybe she's quiet because she secretly RESENTS Squall!? Okay, more or less kidding about that, but point being that FF8 has a lot of behind-the-scenes (even in plot; does anybody even KNOW what the hell a Great Hyne IS!?), so a lot of options are possible.
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Post by Fleck on Jan 17, 2011 17:19:29 GMT -8
It would explain everything, but I disagree, as Selphie always treats him that way. When Irvine first starts hitting on her (as they ride the train from G-Garden to Deling City), he gives his womanizing spiel and she brushes him off (awkwardly), and then resumes looking out the window. And really, she continues to treat him that way for the majority of the game. If she were making a point of ignoring him for the sake of making him change his personality, I would think we (the audience) would see a shift in her reactions towards him. And like I said, Selphie is probably the most honest character in the game. While it seems cute that she would play hard-to-get, I don't think she's emotionally manipulative or a master of deception. Selphie is just Selphie.
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Post by Bob on Jan 17, 2011 17:54:29 GMT -8
What amuses me about Selphie is that she seems like a boy-chasing ditz, but I don't think she ever says anything about boys (correct me if I'm wrong). She mostly just likes cute stuff and friends.
I think not enough is really seen of them to declare for certain, but I think Irvine starts to grow on Selphie. Like, when they're talking in the Ragnarok after saving Rinoa (I pulled up a random youtube clip from the end-ish of the game, and this was it). They don't talk directly, but Irvine says something, and Selphie replies "Yeah! Blah blah blah" and Irvine does his shy head/hat rub thing. I don't really want to get into any super analysis stuff, but I think that this is definitely showing that Selphie agrees with something he says and it kinda takes him off-guard. Not a huge point for "THEY'RE BUMPING UGLIES" but showing that something new is happening.
Add that to the fact that Selphie and Irvine are the two that use the video camera in the credits ending and you know they're at least good friends and that she's not just ignoring him anymore. I know that if somebody I didn't really like stuck his stinky hat on my head, I wouldn't just go over and pose for the camera and be all smiles. So there's definitely SOMETHING between them.
.....though I haven't ruled out the possibility that Irvine is gay, either. MAYBE when they first meet Irvine, Selphie is disgusted by the things he says, but then at some point, probably while Squall is in outer space or something, Selphie figures it out! Irvine is gay! And now she's finally able to acknowledge his existence because she knows he's not a disgusting pervert, he's just trying to cover up his gayocity! Look at how neatly he combs his hair. His purple vest. His mannerisms. His "boo-hoo Rinoa scratched me and pulled my hair" scene when leaving the prison with Rinoa. By the end credits, Irvine is Selphie's gay best friend! I JUST FIGURED OUT BLUE'S CLUES!
....My vote is that by the end of the game, they're either a couple or Irvine is her gay best friend.
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Post by countlieberkuhn on Jan 18, 2011 3:52:51 GMT -8
Yeah, while nothing explicit happens between Selphie and Irvine, there's enough implied in the final cutscene to suggest that they are together at the end. People may disagree, but that's how I've always seen it!
As a side note, Selphie is a rarity in that she's cute, hyperactive, not overly intelligent (I know, I'll stop a missile crisis BY HITTING ALL THE BUTTONS!) and perpetually cheery, yet somehow is still really likeable and rarely, if ever, annoying. The only other person in FF that does that is pre-X-2 Rikku. This is in comparison to their archetypal equivalents Penelo, who is less ditzy but has a 'nagging mother' streak, and Vanille, who is Vanille. Not sure what it is about her, but she irritated me most of the time, although I'll give her some credit for being interesting in that scene where Sazh has a breakdown after Dajh turns to crystal. That scene is one of my favourite moments in FF history, even if I don't hold the game itself in too high regard.
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Post by Fleck on Jan 18, 2011 3:59:07 GMT -8
I didn't say that there was no chance in hell that they were dating, just that a 30 second scene at the very end of the game is the only time anything is suggested other than "they're friends/comrades" and even that scene isn't proof of anything yet. I'm mostly annoyed at FF Wiki who seems to take it as a forgone conclusion. I interpret it to mean that Selphie is finally accepting Irvine and that they're getting started on a relationship, but not really all the way in just yet. That's my view.
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Post by countlieberkuhn on Jan 18, 2011 4:49:16 GMT -8
That's fair enough, to be fair that's kinda how I see it, they got together just after the events of the game, and are enjoying those nice early days of dating when everything seems peachy. Definitely a couple, but nothing like 'omg they're gonna get married!' or anything. Just typical young love that more likely than not will amount to nothing in the long run.
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I don't like to think that their parents were almost their parents, if you know what I mean. 
